Ginger ([info]immlass) wrote,
2005-12-19 14:28:00
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Amber in other systems

There's another round of various bloggy people talking about using various systems--currently 9 Worlds, which has been on my list to buy/read/play since it was in beta--to run Amber. I've been reading the comments discussion, which keeps getting derailed on GM fiat and other issues, but misses what I think is one of the key issues in Amber gaming these days: there's no single definition of what an Amber game is.

ADRPG, for all its flaws--and I think it has a metric buttload, from problems with its mechanics to lousy portrayals of the source material--is really good at one thing: Throne Wars. It has long been my (and [info]mcroft's, to give credit where it's due) contention that ADRPG sees the Corwin books as two throne wars: a two-book one and a three-book one. I've always thought this vision of the Amber books misses the most important qualities of the story. It's one of the reasons I didn't play Amber until I was sure I had a ruleset that could support the kind of play I wanted (Everway).

One of the comments threads addresses whether or not elements of 9 Worlds will work and why or why not. I'm here to tell you that that's not a relevant question. What kind of Amber game do you want to run? That's the real question. Once you have that settled, you can pick a system.

Or, if you want to go the other way around, what themes and elements of 9 Worlds (or Everway, or Nobilis, or your system of choice) fit with some of the hundreds of possible themes of Amber games? How do you then make the mechanics work with your game? That's how you get a non-ADRPG game in an Amber setting that makes sense, not by mishmashing everything possible in the setting to everything possible in somebody else's game rules.
Tags: rpg: amber, rpg: theory

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  • 17 comments

[info]kadath

December 19 2005, 19:36:25 UTC 6 years ago

Amber is a setting (every setting!), not a system. Thought everybody knew that.

[info]rvdammit

December 19 2005, 20:30:44 UTC 6 years ago

I always thought ADRPG is an experimental system nailed (badly?) onto a setting

[info]kadath

December 19 2005, 20:38:09 UTC 6 years ago

Like Ginger said, it's great for a Throne War, and I find that, if your group has enough of a groove going, that it generally works fine for other game types, too. But a tight group can make a go of even the worst systems, really, so I don't know how much of a defense that is.

[info]rvdammit

December 19 2005, 21:06:47 UTC 6 years ago

I've never played in a throne war, and have read the Corwin Chronicles once. About two years ago. which is six or sevene after I started playing ADRPG.

My general experience is that it is a nifty framework to hange roleplaying on, rather than rollplaying. So much so that many of my favourite characters' 'sheets' only exist for GM reference, I never see them.

[info]kadath

December 19 2005, 22:12:09 UTC 6 years ago

Inasmuch as the attribute auction (my most hated game mechanic ever) lets the GM know what people want to be good at and how strongly they feel about it, it's a good roleplaying prompt. However, it assumes and consequently fosters intraparty conflict, and the highest-attribute-wins conflict resolution tends to create a very metagame mindset in players who (justifiably) don't want their characters to get smoked by picking the wrong fight.

[info]matt_snyder

December 19 2005, 19:45:27 UTC 6 years ago

Ah! Wonderful. Yes, I too was baffled by concerns raised about playing in the Amber universe (multiverse?) with Nine Worlds. I defer to people who know Amber better, but I kept seeing commens that I read as "Well, Nine Worlds wouldn't work for Amber because the game doesn't work that way." And that made me scratch my head a lot, thinking "Of course it doesn't, but I'm suggesting playing this game over here instead." Weird.

Anyway, you're asking excellent questions! Unfortunately, I'm woefully ill-equipped to answer Amber-world-related questions. I know very little beyond the most superficial basics.

But, ask away on Nine Worlds, and I can answer any time, any place. I'm eager to do so.

[info]colomon

December 19 2005, 21:05:51 UTC 6 years ago

My six cents:

On ADRPG -- I think the basic notions of ADRPG are fine for a wide variety of gaming. (Admittedly with much-needed tweaks!)

On 9 Worlds -- it amused me (reading the threads you linked to) that the description of Amber that made it seem to fit the 9 Worlds game is pretty much exactly the kind of Amber game I'm not much interested in playing. I see the PCs are heroes, not gods. (Hercules rather than Zeus.)

On GM Fiat (not that you mentioned it above) -- seems to me the missing point in the discussion was that ADRPG is 100% GM Fiat in conflict resolution, but encourages large amounts of player input in world design and player freedom to do what they want. A classic game like D&D may have less GM Fiat in conflict resolution, but it is structured to encourage little input from the players about the world they live in. (Which isn't to say you couldn't play either game either way, of course!)

[info]matt_snyder

December 19 2005, 21:25:49 UTC 6 years ago

Colomon, not to say that you're bound or required to dig Nine Worlds, but it is not at al like playing Zeus rather than Hercules. In fact, it's not even much like playing Hercules. It's like playing mortals with some powers who are figuring out their place in the universe. It's more like playing, oh, Odysseus than it is some grand immortal.

And, um, it's pretty cool.

[info]colomon

December 19 2005, 21:42:55 UTC 6 years ago

Matt, that wasn't about 9W, which I know nothing about other than what it said in those posts Ginger linked above -- it was about one of the fault lines in the Amber community.

Which is to say, the ADRPG rulebook describes characters as a lot more godlike than most of us noticed when we were reading Zelazny's books.

[info]matt_snyder

December 19 2005, 21:50:44 UTC 6 years ago

Actually, I think it IS about Nine Worlds in a round-about way.

When you see those people suggesting that one use the kind of Amber approach you don't like with Nine Worlds, then you're likely to not get interested at all in Nine Worlds and associate my game with that approach.

You read their thoughts on it, think "Hmm, that's not my style," and not realy give it much more interest. Which is fine, but I'd rather give you a slightly more accurate pitch before I go away! ;)

[info]beingfrank

December 19 2005, 22:55:16 UTC 6 years ago

It makes it difficult to have a discussion if, like me, you know one but not the other. I know Amber, the novels, ADRPG, the game, but Nine Worlds not at all. I suspect that in order to know if Nine Worlds would work for me to play an Amber game, I'd need to know Nine Worlds myself, or have someone who knows Nine Worlds and what I like in an Amber game explain it to me.

Could Nine Worlds work for an Amber game? I'd be shocked if it couldn't. But as Ginger says, there's such a breath of possibilities in the term 'an Amber game' that that doesn't really tell me if I'd like it. Or tell you if lots of people would like to play it.

I'm trying to think of a helpful comment to you, because I suspect you're wondering if Nine Worlds would be a good enough fit with Amber for you to put effort into promoting it further as such. If that's the case, I suspect your best method is to talk with people who either play, or are interested in playing Amber (but are maybe put off by ADRPG), and have a look at the source novels yourself if you aren't familiar with them. But that may not be what you're interested in.

[info]losrpg

December 22 2005, 05:45:46 UTC 6 years ago

I think the real issue is that Zelazny is not at all consistent in how godlike he portrays the characters...at times, very godlike...at other times, very human.

[info]jldecker

December 20 2005, 01:30:52 UTC 6 years ago

//is still waiting for an opening in HoC//

//patiently, she might add//

^-^

[info]immlass

December 22 2005, 04:46:07 UTC 6 years ago

*finally gets comments mail*

You should come lurk. Lurkers get first choice when there are slots. (Not that I think there will be one in the immediate future on account of personal things--nothing bad, just me being busy.)

[info]jldecker

January 2 2006, 15:12:57 UTC 6 years ago

I'd love to lurk! ^-^ If anything, it'll make for interesting reading.

[info]immlass

January 5 2006, 02:43:25 UTC 6 years ago

Send me the email address you want to use and I'll hook you up!

[info]jldecker

January 5 2006, 18:23:38 UTC 6 years ago

amber_gypsy@hotmail.com works nicely. ^-^
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